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This week’s column has a twist, rather than sending our community content, we want to hear from you, the true experts in the field that are dedicated to the sport. We’d like to understand your thoughts on points, point counting and especially RBIS. Recently, Dog News announced that they would be adding points to dogs’ records for RBIS. Billy Wheeler of Dog Show Poop has been tracking RBIS since January 2014*. With a popular blog and a well-respected magazine now tracking RBIS points should the AKC now take the step towards making RBIS of more consequence as Billy Wheeler and Dog News suggest by their inclusion of RBIS points in their statistical tracking? To date, the AKC only allows the awarding of a beautiful Reserve Best In Show Ribbon.

With the Dog News announcement, a great deal of chatter has erupted in mainstream publications and social media discussing the pluses & minuses of RBIS points. So, we want to know…. what’s your take? what makes sense for the fancy? what makes sense for your breed? If you were to award RBIS points, what would your scheme be? should we keep it? do we want awards that say, in the words of Maxwell Smart of TV’s Get Smart “missed it by that much…(and he would hold his fingers really close together)”?

Canine Chronicle explored the value of the AKC awarding points for RBIS and examined different options for points awards, pointing out pluses & minuses. They explored the option from returning the Group 2 winning dog from the same group that won BIS and determining point schedules that would be fair. Using the true reserve structure is an interesting plan, making it, as they point out, a reserve award like what we see in the open classes. However, awarding Best In Show is full of drama and tension while everyone waits for the Judge’s announcement. This strategy would rob us of that moment of pure delight when the final decision is made. The Judge announces Best, then the Group 2 dog must be brought into the ring, then another Judging round while the new dog is judged against the dogs already there? Yikes, the ring procedure!

As a sidenote, while Canine Chronicle decided against the awarding of points by any publication if the AKC doesn’t sanction it, they do have a point schedule that’s also independent of any AKC approved methodology with their “Weekend Challenge” that tracks points for dogs shown only on Saturday and Sunday.

In Billy Wheeler’s Dog Show Poop weekly statistics update, we see the following dogs in the traditional point count:

1. GCh Claircreek Impression de Matisse
2. GCh Bugaboo’s Picture Perfect
3. GCh Marlex Classic Red Glare

4. GCh Dawin Hearts on Fire
5. Ch HiTimes What the Inferno
6. GCh Rainbow Splash’s Ruggedly Handsome
7. Ch Cragsmoor Good Time Charlie
8. GCh Shaireab Bayleigh Maide of Honor
9. GCh Whistlestop’s Riley on Fire
10. GCh Telltale American Ride

And in the RBIS point count, the placements look like this:

1. GCh Bugaboo’s Picture Perfect
2. GCh Claircreek Impression de Matisse

3. GCh Marlex Classic Red Glare

4. Ch Cragsmoor Good Time Charlie

5. GCh Dawin Hearts on Fire

6. GCh Shaireab Bayleigh Maide of Honor

7. Ch HiTimes What the Inferno

8. GCh Rainbow Splash’s Ruggedly Handsome

9. GCh Tashtin’s Lookin’ For Trouble

10. GCh Whistlestop’s Riley on Fire

What happened? There were some slight shifts: Dogs 1 & 2 swapped places with RBIS added in; the number three dog remained the same; the number seven dog moved up to number four; etc. and a new dog emerged into the rankings.

We checked in with Billy Wheeler to understand his take on tracking RBIS. As ever, the honest broker, Billy made it clear that he provides the standings as a service to the fancy in order to provide a real-world/real-time understanding of how well the dogs are doing and while they’re not official they are incredibly accurate:

While I was the first to offer the dog show going public a glimpse at the impact on the rankings, I do not include actual numbers, just the Top Ten Dogs. I don’t include numbers on either of my rankings as they include estimated numbers on the yet-as-unpublished shows. As I have always said my estimates have proven to be within 0.5 percent of actuals over the past six years.

One comment…I saw a Facebook comment that stated that the RBIS offerings were just an ploy to increase advertising. As you know, I don’t take advertising on dogs.

Let us know what would you do? Use as many words as needed by email to info@bestinshowdaily.com, or replies to this post, or on our social media,or by carrier pigeon, dog sled, whatever way you can. Full articles covering the topic are welcomed. We’ll be polling throughout the week and next week, with a summary of what you, our readers think and articles that are submitted for publishing.

*Dog Show Poop announcement http://dogshowpoop.blogspot.com/2014/01/announcing-with-rbis-rankings.html

Dog News, Dog Show Poop, Canine Chronicle are separate entities and copyrighted names wholly owned by their respective publishers. Get Smart, Maxwell Smart are wholly owned registered copyrights of Talent Associates.

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  • Babs April 19, 2014 at 10:19 AM

    Stupid unless you give them points!

    • David R April 20, 2014 at 12:22 PM

      Why have it at all……soon we will have Rbis, Rbis1, Rbis2,Rbis3, Rbis4,Rbis5—-No one should feel left out……Come on……………. how much will your handler need for a bonus for each award?

  • Sandy Mesmer, about-small-dogs.com April 19, 2014 at 10:51 AM

    If the AKC awards the prize, it should count in the standings. Otherwise it’s like drinking Diet Coke, all show and no pleasure.

  • Sonnya April 19, 2014 at 11:35 AM

    My opinion about RBIS at this time is a waste of time in its present form. I believe that RBIS should receive “points” less the amount from the group the BIS winner came from, then I feel the award would mean something.

  • Dick Caldwell April 19, 2014 at 11:36 AM

    Sure, RBIS should get points. The dog has a legitimate claim to having defeated all dogs except those in the group the BIS dog came from. Same logic as for a Group 2.

    Dick Caldwell

  • Patricia April 19, 2014 at 11:50 AM

    If RBIS is going to be awarded points, then it has to be awarded at EVERY show, otherwise it would just skew the results.

  • Katie April 19, 2014 at 3:02 PM

    My personal thought is that they should get points but not as many as BIS and it should be recorded of course.

  • Ronni DeLay April 19, 2014 at 4:31 PM

    I absolutely think RBIS should be awarded points. Otherwise the award has very little meaning.

  • Virginia April 19, 2014 at 7:54 PM

    RBIS is an empty award without awarding points.

  • Lita Long April 20, 2014 at 12:13 AM

    RBIS should be awarded only points from groups defeated. that has been the standing process of the dogs defeat counts.. and I personally donot and would not want to win group 2 and then have to come back in for BIS. The wait after a long day and thenlong drive home.. That would only had cost to owners whose dog wins Gr 2 and then have to compete again.. Some times “KISS ” is the better part of valor..

  • Jen Proud
    Jen P April 20, 2014 at 5:35 AM

    Absolutely RBIS should get some kind of points, just a little less than BIS would receive. Standings would be much more accurate when tabulated- and really, who’s crying over being #2 in the entire show? Sometimes, that’s all I dared hope for as an exhibitor :)
    But, the bringing in of the group 2 dog to BIS would just be a mess for everyone involved! In other KCs, RBIS is awarded from only the group 1 winners present in the BIS ring, sometimes RBIS is awarded first to keep the suspense up for who’s BIS. I like that idea/format, both as an exhibitor and spectator, as it keeps everyone guessing who will be BIS until the very end; I feel that would be very acceptable a procedure to make standard for judging BIS with a RBIS award as well.

  • Karen T April 20, 2014 at 11:04 AM

    Of course RBIS should have points. After all at a Specialty a RWD or RWB gets points toward its championship. Keep it doable, by subtracting the points from the group of the BIS winner from RBIS winner. Additionally, it must be awarded at every show or it is pointless and not evenly distributed for exhibitors around the country. Fair is fair and this gives all exhibitors an equal opportunity, unlike the Owner Handler competition where clubs have the choice and the owner handler has to go on a quest to find Owner Handler supported venues.

  • heather
    Heather rife dvm April 20, 2014 at 11:05 AM

    RBIS should get points less the group the BIS dog came from. Do not bring in the number 2 dog…what a mess and a huge wait for almost all 2 nd place dogs. I would rather receive group 3 and go home, then group 2 and have to wait.

  • Deb Eldredge, D.V.M.
    Deb E April 20, 2014 at 11:42 AM

    I am not so sure – with rare exceptions Reserve Winners Dog & Reserve Winners Bitch don’t get points. So there is long standing tradition of honoring the reserve dogs but not giving them points.

  • Lilian Barber April 20, 2014 at 3:28 PM

    Frankly, I think the whole RBIS thing has lessened the excitement of the Best in Show award and “ceremony”. I’ve been against it all along and tend to agree that it has been helpful mainly for increasing advertising. The whole ranking system has unleveled the playing field even further when it comes to those of us who can’t afford or choose not to play on a higher level. That said, I enjoy the dog sport on the level I am able to play and have done so for nearly 50 years. Whether or not RBIS gets points (and I do feel that as long as the award is offered it SHOULD be accompanied by points or it’s totally meaningless) is immaterial to me and to the thousands of breeders and exhibitors playing on that lower level.

  • Keven Harris April 20, 2014 at 6:47 PM

    From an outsider point of view and from a country where every class is put up for the judging of BIG and then BIS, it can be a laborious task for any judge visiting or otherwise! BTW, the second group placed OR reserve BIG winner (Australian clubs have the option of using either method) to the BIS awarded dog does come back into the ring for RUBIS adjudication, and can on occasions be the second best overall exhibit.

    Having been fortunate enough to have officiated several times in the USA, I had come to appreciate and enjoy very much the absence of all that extra work. However, I had always thought that a system that allows for 4 group placings but nothing to indicate a judges take on the two best exhibits on the day at BIS level somewhat wanting.

    I was ever so pleased to find that this has now changed with the introduction of Runner up BIS. This award (and I agree with Sandy’s comment (except for the Coke bit) is that a judge is in his / her opinion, indicating the two exhibits that have beaten the entire entry of the day and so should be honored before the gallery.

    As to points toward additional titles, this does not apply in my native land (Australia) or my current country of residence (Philippines) and is really a matter for the local administration. (AKC) Points toward Standings however is another thing and in my experience, especially where there as several if not many point score systems running concurrently, there will always be those happy with their lot and those who will question the same and never satisfied with the answers!

    Keven Harris
    International All Breed Judge!

  • Giselle Simonds April 20, 2014 at 8:29 PM

    I really have no interest in the points calculated for RBIS. I really appreciate the award though. I having been showing dogs since 1970 and have seen a change in the dog show scene that makes me reevaluate what I show or send out to show.
    I once heard a comment about RBIS that it is only for those who have not won a Best In Show. What a snide comment. In all the years that I have been showing my own dogs the best I ever got was a group second. Several dogs with my handler Adrian Ghione have won groups. I am just an normal person who breeds dogs to the standard as published. I enjoy showing and winning. I appreciate the Grand Championship levels and Reserve Best In Show.

  • Julie Wright April 21, 2014 at 5:12 PM

    I think there is WAY too much emphasis on points. However, if RBIS is to be awarded points, then it should be the BIS points less the group that the BIS came from. NO WAY should the Group 2’s have to wait around to come back into the ring. Just keep picking from the Group winners & get it over with…..I would prefer to have it remain as is with no points awarded so that it can remain a fun consolation prize with nice bragging rights and not be turned into another cut throat quest for points and handler bonuses……

  • Linda Lethin April 21, 2014 at 9:09 PM

    I think that the dog that went second in the BIS dog, should be brought back into the ring to compete for reserve.

  • Linda Lethin April 21, 2014 at 9:11 PM

    Above post should read……”Second in the BIS dogs group”

  • Sandy O April 24, 2014 at 4:53 PM

    The Group 2 winning dog should definitely not compete for RBIS – to have all the G2 dogs on standby is not realistic especially for a show like the AKC show and Westminster where different groups are judged on different days.
    There should definitely be points for RBIS as the dog has effectively only been beaten by 1 dog the BIS winner and is placed above all the remaining group winners – which is an achievement not to be sniffed at!
    I do think that the award for RBIS should be awarded after BIS has been declared – which is how this is managed in the UK and works perfectly well without spoiling the moment for anyone

  • Ellen Cottingham April 29, 2014 at 8:16 PM

    Having been on both sides of the RBIS and BIS, I feel that if they continue with the award then it should be AFTER BIS is awarded. I do not feel any points should be given to RBIS. I believe if this was the rule of thumb then the #1 dog at the end of the year could possibly have not even won a BIS or very few. That to me would not be the best outcome in awarding the top dog all breeds for that year.

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